edutcher said...
Next to "The Big Country", (The Searcher's is) the worst we-painted-ourselves-into-a-corner-and-we-have-to-come-up-with-a-really-stupid-unbelievable-resolution-so-the-picture-will-make-money ending in the history of movies.The logical ending would have to have been have The Duke try to kill Natalie and Jeff Hunter has to shoot it out with him - and almost certainly kill him. But we couldn't do that.
You obviously missed the point pilgrim. Ethan Edwards always loved his sister-in-law. She was the girl he left behind when he went off to fight in the Civil war. He looks at her children as his children. He could never speak of his love for her....it drips off of every part of their brief scene together. His devotion to her can only be redeemed by saving the one daughter she has left. So he goes on a ten year Odyssey to rescue her. But he is fully a man of his times. Ford doesn't sugar coat it. He is a racist bullheaded hot head who would rather kill Debbie than see her polluted by becoming Scar's concubine. In that final moment when he holds Debbie in his arms he sees the woman that he had lost forever. In that moment where he forgives her and makes his peace with her he is fully redeemed. The easy ending would be as you describe. But Ford would not copy Hawk's plot in "Red River." He is not about to have Ethan's surrogate son shoot him in a final confrontation. He chose a different path. Ethan Edwards still had the capacity to love. To remember. To redeem his life and his search.
That is what makes "The Searchers" an epic masterpiece.
Next to "The Big Country", (The Searcher's is) the worst we-painted-ourselves-into-a-corner-and-we-have-to-come-up-with-a-really-stupid-unbelievable-resolution-so-the-picture-will-make-money ending in the history of movies.The logical ending would have to have been have The Duke try to kill Natalie and Jeff Hunter has to shoot it out with him - and almost certainly kill him. But we couldn't do that.
You obviously missed the point pilgrim. Ethan Edwards always loved his sister-in-law. She was the girl he left behind when he went off to fight in the Civil war. He looks at her children as his children. He could never speak of his love for her....it drips off of every part of their brief scene together. His devotion to her can only be redeemed by saving the one daughter she has left. So he goes on a ten year Odyssey to rescue her. But he is fully a man of his times. Ford doesn't sugar coat it. He is a racist bullheaded hot head who would rather kill Debbie than see her polluted by becoming Scar's concubine. In that final moment when he holds Debbie in his arms he sees the woman that he had lost forever. In that moment where he forgives her and makes his peace with her he is fully redeemed. The easy ending would be as you describe. But Ford would not copy Hawk's plot in "Red River." He is not about to have Ethan's surrogate son shoot him in a final confrontation. He chose a different path. Ethan Edwards still had the capacity to love. To remember. To redeem his life and his search.
That is what makes "The Searchers" an epic masterpiece.
'Fraid not.
ReplyDeleteBoth Ford and The Duke made better pictures. "Sergeant Rutledge", "Fort Apache", and, of course, "Stagecoach".
As I say, they got themselves into a corner and had to find a way out and ended up with one of the phoniest endings in movies. Edwards is a racist and committed to vengeance; the whole picture he is obsessed with how Debbie has been soiled and tries to kill her at one point. If he was going to have a change of heart, it would have been then.
Sorry, pilgrim, that argument's all hat and no cattle.
I still think the movie is racist.
ReplyDeleteHeh.
Ethan hates Commanches because he's a racist - oh, and because they killed his parents, brother, and Sister-in-law, no excuse I know - & he tries to rescue Debbie.
ReplyDeleteAfter looking for her for years, he finds she's the wife of a "Comanche buck" and in vows to kill her in fit of rage. Later, when meeting her face-to-face, he changes his mind.
Not phony to me at all. In fact, if you read some history, people back then understood that White Kids kidnapped by the Indians often considered themselves Indian. Never read about anyone wanting to kill them for it.
BTW, if the Comanches killed my family for no good reason I wouldn't hate them, cause I'm not a racist.
ReplyDeletePats self on back.
rc--
ReplyDeleteNo, no, the movie's not racist because of Ethan. Ethan's behavior is perfectly understandable. And having a racist in a movie doesn't make a racist movie.
I think the movie is racist because of this scene where they see the woman who'd been captured by the Comanches for a couple years—and she's lost the ability to talk! She's a complete animal!
I know the Comanches were brutal (at least sometimes) to captured women but that just strained credibility for me.
I've admitted that I'm willing to re-evaluate on another viewing but I just found it absurd.
Odysseus was a better fighter than the Duke.
ReplyDeleteI had a girlfriend who was part Indian. Neither push start nor pull start - rather an Osage.
As for racism, I think you have to be raised by ex-slaves to truly reach proper internet levels of racism. Where is the emoticon that will keep Fred4 off my case?
The obvious and honorable means for settling this dispute...racist..not..meet down by the river at sunrise and resolve it like men...pistols at 25 paces. I never tried to analyzed Ford/Wayne pics...just enjoyed a story on the screen..guess there is a gap in my life that needs fillin. I think livin white in this era does not give a good feel for frontier culture in the nineteenth century...kill or be killed...prevail or fall by the way...injun..slaves. Dirty people say what??
ReplyDeleteNot like us civilized Europeans.. We like to look after our own. As opposed to
"them". Was Ford into all of that? I am a fan....but Howard Hawks is da man.
I love how Trooper's prose tightens up to near perfection when he writes about something he cares passionately about.
ReplyDelete@Grit: You're the expert here--can you pick up any glaring errors in what Trooper hath wrought?
ReplyDeleteBut he is fully a man of his times. Ford doesn't sugar coat it. He is a racist bullheaded hot head who would rather kill Debbie than see her polluted by becoming Scar's concubine. In that final moment when he holds Debbie in his arms he sees the woman that he had lost forever. In that moment where he forgives himself and makes his peace with her he is fully redeemed.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. But please do not remake this movie with Titus, Crack, Sixty, the EBL, and Trooper. I can confidently predict it would not be as good. Even if Carol Herman is a close Mose Harper.
Trooper York as Ethan Edwards
ReplyDeleteTitus as Martin Pawley
Ritmo as Laurie Jorgensen
Crack as the Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton
Freeman Hunt as Debbie Edwards
Paladian as Lars Jorgensen
Allen S. as Mrs. Jorgensen
The EBL as Scar
edutcher as Charlie McCorry
Sixty Grit as Young Infantry Officer
Meade as Emilio Gabriel Fernandez y Figueroa
J as Wild Goose Flying in the Night Sky (Look)
Carol Herman as Mose Harper
Yeah, I know, this is wrong.
Excuse me, Sixty Grit as Young Calvary Officer. My bad.
ReplyDeleteOh and last but not least,
ReplyDeleteFred4Pres as John Ford.
I pinched my weekend morning loaf and it was actually a log.
ReplyDeleteIt was really long, smooth, and soothing.
I didn't even have to clip it.
thank you.
Do you guys ever look in the mirror at your pucker and talk to it?
ReplyDeleteI do.
I say, hi there little pucker, aren't you shiny and special? Are you going to have a good day?
I sing to it too. Songs like Up With People and The Little Old Ant Has High Hopes.
Thanks,
tits.
Truth be told ...a good dump is more satisfying than a good meal...
ReplyDeleteUnlike the dictorial John Ford, I am willing for suggestions on my remake of the Serchers picks. Other than Trooper for Ethan and Carol Herman for Mose Harper. I do think Ann makes a hell of a Scar.
ReplyDeleteI apologize for including anyone or excluding anyone. I did that casting list fast.
I do think Titus makes a hell of a Marty, but he could as easily be Charlie McCorry or Look.
EBL as Scar
ReplyDeleteShouldn't that part go to an Italian or a Siciilian? Or better, AllenS?
I mean for authenticity's sake.
It'd prolly be best to leave EBL out completely to avoid internecine warfare.
"internecine squabbles" sounds better than "internecine warfare"
ReplyDeleteAmend that comment.
I didn't mean to leave chickenlittle or ripic or a lot of other commentators out. That is why I am suggesting you jump in on what roles commentators could play.
ReplyDeleteA couple of significant triva points about that movie--Ethan's mother's tombstone is shown just before the raid and shows she was also killed by the Comanche.
John Ford hinted during filming that Ethan might have had an affair with his brother's wife and may have been the father of Lucy and Debbie.
And there is this nugget: Ward Bond, in his motel room after shooting, would walk around naked with the curtains open in hopes of attracting Vera Miles. Apparently, this plan did not have the intended results.
I did not know this: Robert Wagner auditioned for the role of Martin Pawley.
ReplyDeleteIronic, given Martin's role in arguing for Debbie.
I didn't mean to leave chickenlittle or ripic or a lot of other commentators out
ReplyDeleteNo harm Fred. I like being an extra. And I don't mind sharing a trailer with blake and even ron, as long as it's a double wide and is located near the female extras: Darcy, Victoria, MamaM, Deborah, Dust Bunny, Ruth Anne. There may even be room for a pet or two: Penny, & Kitty. I assume that Allie will bunk with Ritmo.
Just make sure that Trooper gets top billing.
ReplyDeleteGot any, gripes?
Since we're making a film, amend that to:
ReplyDeleteGot any, grips?
Well, I am probably better suited to the grizzled old cook or perhaps a prospector too long in the sun, or maybe, were I furnished a black hat, either a wandering Amish or Hasidim who took a wrong turn at Albuquerque. Or I could play the role Duke played, with more of a Gabby Hayes twist or something like that. All this is my way of saying I couldn't play a young anything, save Methuselah. Moses after he saw the burning bush, maybe. I do like redheads, after all...
ReplyDeleteSixty, I was joking. If you remember the young officer sticks Rev. Clayton in the ass with his saber during the last battle.
ReplyDeleteAnd I cast Crack as Rev. Clayton.
John Podhoretz maligned The Searchers years ago. I started to question his judgment after that.
ReplyDeleteNow that The Corner/NRO has commentary, you can challenge his heresy and stupidity (even though he no longer works there). http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/125238/last/john-podhoretz
Podhoretz Heresy.
ReplyDeleteThe young officer was Patrick Wayne the Duke's son.
ReplyDeleteThe nuance that Wayne brought to this performance is among his top three of all time. He played the hate but then he played the love. It wasn't quite as good as "Red River" but it was one for the books.
ReplyDeleteHe did have reason to hate the Comanche but he did hate them for racial reasons. Because of who they were not just because of what they did. Unlike his character in Fort Apache or Tie A Yellow Ribbon he does not admire his adversary. He is just an implacable foe.
The only thing that stayed his had was Martha's face looking back at him when he held Debbie in his arms.
Trooper: you continue to outdo yourself--I continued to be amazed at your grasp of John Ford movies--well done, sir, and gary owen
ReplyDeleteand I gotta suggest that Treasure of the Sierra Madre, (think John Ford did that) was also a great movie.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteoops my bad--walter huston did treasure of the sierra madre
ReplyDeleteWalter, John and Angelica - one of two families that have 3 generations of Oscar winners. The other family made movies about family, and business. Just shut up about Fredo, okay?
ReplyDelete"I think the movie is racist because of this scene where they see the woman who'd been captured by the Comanches for a couple years—and she's lost the ability to talk! She's a complete animal!"
ReplyDeleteLet's see Blake. Probably saw her family killed in front of her,then raped and taken off to be the 3rd wife of some Comanche brave, which means she would slave all day and get kicked around for it.
I know it wouldn't have affected me, I'd be singing a song and dancing a jig at my new Comanche home**, but others may have reacted differently.
** = assuming I was a woman - since Comanche's always killed men over 15.
Of course, its tough to agree about what's "Racist".
ReplyDeleteLets See:
Blacks are so inferior they should be Slaves = Racism
Don't believe in Affirmative action = Racism.
Its a word that works overtime.
"And there is this nugget: Ward Bond, in his motel room after shooting, would walk around naked with the curtains open in hopes of attracting Vera Miles. Apparently, this plan did not have the intended results."
ReplyDeleteIts always worked for me - its how I got Mrs. Rc.
Yabbut, RC, this is two years later. And she'd completely forgotten how to speak and comport herself?
ReplyDeleteReally? Did that EVER happen?
John Wayne does a hell of a job. As for Podhoretz, I understand that the mix of studio/backlot vs. location scenes in The Searchers can be distracting. I am sure Ford would have done everything on location if the studio let him (they didn't). But I got the movie when I first saw it as a kid and I have never been disappointed seeing it again (and I have seen it dozens and dozens of times).
ReplyDeleteBlake, I assume stuff like that happens. It could explain J and Carol Herman.
ReplyDeleteThey were captured by...Ron Paulites?
ReplyDeleteChicken, Victoria and I might let you visit our trailer...just visit, as we'll be busy discussing "the craft."
ReplyDeleteIts always worked for me - its how I got Mrs. Rc.
ReplyDeleteYou married Vera Miles?
"Blake, I assume stuff like that happens. It could explain J and Carol Herman."
ReplyDeleteI thought we were talking about people who couldn't talk - not those who can't shut up.
"You married Vera Miles?"
ReplyDeleteNo, I married someone better looking.
Most of these comments here are inside baseball because you all are so used to interacting together, but just so you know The Searchers is very true to history. Read up on what happened to whites kidnapped by Indians is Texas in the 1800's. They considered them little more than mules or horses that they had stolen.
ReplyDelete