Friday, November 11, 2011

Bold Fenian Men



Back in the day when the Army was Irish.
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30 comments:

chickelit said...

The Irish even once populated Wisconsin. But some of her best were wiped out in a single tragic night: link

Many survivors went on to volunteer for the Union cause.

November 11, 2011 at 12:43 PM
edutcher said...

They weren't Fenians, they were Americans.

The Fenians wanted to start a war with Britain. Men like the regimental singers cast their lot with their new country.

Many regiments of the regular Army had their own character. Some like, the 7th Infantry, were considered German regiments. Others, like the 7th Cavalry, were considered Irish regiments.

They may have thought about it on Saint Paddy's Day, but they saw themselves as Americans. We could use some of that these days.

November 11, 2011 at 1:02 PM
Fred4Pres said...

They were Americans. They thought fondly of the old country, but the vast majority never considered ever going back there to live.

November 11, 2011 at 1:45 PM
Trooper York said...

I am hesitant to ascribe our feelings to the Irish who served back in the day.

Check out the history of the Saint Patick's Battalion led by John Riley in the Mexican War. You might get a different perspective. Just sayn'

November 11, 2011 at 2:55 PM
Trooper York said...

You could be a Fenian and a true blue American.

John Ford was both.

November 11, 2011 at 2:56 PM
Trooper York said...

Eamon De Valera the first president of Ireland was born in New York City.

November 11, 2011 at 3:00 PM
chickelit said...

Trooper York said...
Eamon De Valera the first president of Ireland was born in New York City.

So he was eligible to be POTUS too? Let's ask Mick.

November 11, 2011 at 3:19 PM
edutcher said...

Trooper York said...

I am hesitant to ascribe our feelings to the Irish who served back in the day.

Check out the history of the Saint Patick's Battalion led by John Riley in the Mexican War. You might get a different perspective. Just sayn'

I know about the San Patricios. They were traitors, sorry.

There were plenty of Irish who served honorably in Mexico that didn't go over to the enemy.

You could be a Fenian and a true blue American.

John Ford was both.

My mother's family, both sides, came over in the 1840s. Growing up, my mother (born 1909) never let us think we were anything but American and had no time for the Fenians. In fact, she looked on them with contempt.

Not picking a fight.

Just sayin'.

November 11, 2011 at 3:58 PM
Fred4Pres said...

What about them Black Irish?

November 11, 2011 at 4:11 PM
chickelit said...

What about them Black Irish?

That reminds me...anybody seen madawaskan around Althouse lately? She's another MIA I miss.

November 11, 2011 at 4:33 PM
rcocean said...

Santa Anna promised the Irish beachfront property in Acapulco and free Irish Whiskey. Who could resist that?

And now you know the rest of the story.

November 11, 2011 at 4:45 PM
rcocean said...

Santa Anna later left Mexico after he being convicted of selling the same Acapulco real estate to 10 different men. He moved to California to grow Oranges and Surf.

True story.

November 11, 2011 at 4:53 PM
chickelit said...

Santa Anna later left Mexico after he being convicted of selling the same Acapulco real estate to 10 different men. He moved to California to grow Oranges and Surf.

A descendant named Carlos shortened the surname and started a band in San Francisco in the mid 60's.

November 11, 2011 at 5:03 PM
edutcher said...

Santa Anna was willing to go along with Gadsden's original proposal - buy the northern tier of states in Mexico - but public outcry was such that he amended it to the land between the Gila River and the 31st parallel.

He still had to vacate to Cuba, but we did get the railroad route we wanted.

November 11, 2011 at 5:10 PM
chickelit said...

We shoulda bought Baja California.

November 11, 2011 at 5:19 PM
Trooper York said...

I am not picking a fight either it is just that I don't like to ascribe attitudes to people of another era.

The brutality and discipline of the Army were the major reason for the defection of the Irish in the Mexican War.

The draft riots were another indication of the feelings of many of the Irish toward the Army and the Civil War. "It's a rich man's war and a poor man's fight." Not every immigrant went into the Army for patriotic reasons is all. Many if not most did not want to be drafted. Some had the emotions and feelings you cite and others did not.

Ford romantized the Irish in all of his movies. When fact is different than the legend you print the legend.

Just sayn'

November 11, 2011 at 5:19 PM
chickelit said...

Although it's so sunny in Baja California that the Irish don't really have a place in the sun there.

November 11, 2011 at 5:20 PM
Trooper York said...

The most famous attribute of Santa Anna is the fact that he was the historical figure who had the worst case of gas in the history of the world. His farts were actually aimed at the wall of the Alamo and caused the breach that let the Mexicans into the fortress.

That is why a paticular strong and virulent wind is known as the Santa Ana. Just sayn'

November 11, 2011 at 5:21 PM
chickelit said...

Acapulco would be even more swingin': link

November 11, 2011 at 5:22 PM
chickelit said...

Oops! Acapulco isn't in Baja, is it?

November 11, 2011 at 5:23 PM
chickelit said...

Ursula Undress cut a nice figure!

November 11, 2011 at 5:25 PM
rcocean said...

"The draft riots were another indication of the feelings of many of the Irish toward the Army and the Civil War. "It's a rich man's war and a poor man's fight."

They were right about that one.

November 11, 2011 at 6:23 PM
rcocean said...

Hey, there have been plenty of fine, upstanding, patriotic, Irish Americans - and then there's Ted Kennedy.

November 11, 2011 at 6:27 PM
The Dude said...

Have you been to Baja? Seriously, even the scorpions moved out of that hellhole. Surf is good at Cabo, however.

I was thinking about the Draft Riots the other day - imagine naval guns shelling lower Manhattan. Maybe they could use Zucotti park as a target. Aim for filthy hippies dressed like Allie - Jesus, you could sight in on that bitch in pitch darkness.

But I digress. I found out this year that I am part Irish. Knew I was part Scottish, but now I can celebrate St. Paddy's day for the first time in my life. I'll drink to that!

November 11, 2011 at 7:11 PM
rcocean said...

"Have you been to Baja? Seriously, even the scorpions moved out of that hellhole. Surf is good at Cabo, however."

Its pretty nice in the Winter, especially if you like the Ocean, which we do.

November 11, 2011 at 7:32 PM
The Dude said...

The ocean there is awesome. It's the land that sucks. I would make some snarky comment about the populace, but since I live in a sanctuary area, there is no difference between there and here. Well, there may be more English spoken in Cabo, but other than that...

November 11, 2011 at 7:34 PM
edutcher said...

Trooper York said...

I am not picking a fight either it is just that I don't like to ascribe attitudes to people of another era.

The brutality and discipline of the Army were the major reason for the defection of the Irish in the Mexican War.

I can't buy it. The whole, "No Irish Need Apply", thing along with the general Know-Nothing anti-Catholicism (which we still seem to have) appear to have been Ryan's real motive, from the accounts I've read.

Besides, the discipline was as tough on the Squareheads and the Yankees as it was on the Micks.

No?

November 11, 2011 at 9:23 PM
Trooper York said...

J you are not welcome here. All of your posts will be deleted. Please take your business over to Althouse where your posts won't be deleted as she obviously is cool with you and not with other people who she deletes at random.

November 12, 2011 at 1:51 AM
Trooper York said...

The problem was that the hatred of the Irish led to the imposition of much more severe discipline to the Irish soldiers. Where a "Native born American" might get five lashes a Mick would get 20. It was the time of the Know Nothings and people like Riley were super sensitive to this because of how they were treated in England. One of the only avenues of escape for the Irish was the British Army. They served so they could eat. Much as many did in the American Army.

That's not to say that they weren't loyal and patrotic Americans. It is just more complicated than that.

They wore blue but some of their reasons and emotions were grey if you will.

November 12, 2011 at 3:32 PM
ken in tx said...

One Confederate general—I don't remember who—said that the only reason the Yankees won was because they had more Irish than us.

November 12, 2011 at 4:42 PM

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