The "peoples Pope" made a big deal out of excommunicating members of "The Mafia." Which is kind of unusual because the church hasn't been excommunicating people much these days. That was all so passe. So many people who break the rules of the church are welcomed because we have to "hate the sin but love the sinner."
How does a guy like Andrew Cuomo get a break? He pushed for one of the most radical abortion laws in US history where they can perform an abortion when the baby can walk and talk. But he slides by without a word from the hierarchy. How does that work exactly?
At least the Mafia guys donate a lot of dough and get our artifacts back when junkies steal them.
I have to admit I just don't get this Pope.
55 comments:
I had hope for this Pope to not be a fucking politician. That is fading fast. Does he ever do anything that is not for "show?"
I like the guy. He is trying to clean up the sleazy Vatican Bank that has mafia ties for decades. We all know what happened to Paul 1 when he tried that.
I like him too, and even predicted he'd select "Francis" for his name...but I am getting tired of his poses, as that is how I see them, on selected issues.
I am afraid my faith per se is tainted by my familiarity with church bureaucracy, which preceded my conversion to faith. I volunteered my time for two parish offices and saw first hand how the Archdiocese bureaucrats handle things...or invent things to fill their time, and staff up the office more than my old Army office which covered several states, not just one urban region.
The Pope needs to yank a knot in the asses of his own organization before he worries too much about the Mafia. Not to mention dealing directly with abortion supporters who also claim church membership.
What ya picking on the pope for, Troop?
Leave the dirty work to the stinking Protestants.
This Pope was moved by the death of a 3 year old in a mafia drug hit. He travelled to the belly of the beast, southern Calabria. Both of the child's parents are in prison, being mafia themselves. He visited them in their respective prisons, prayed w/ them, and other prisoners. He did not do this for show. He is uncomfortable w/ the trappings of the papacy. He is a man of God, unafraid to show his emotions. His love of children is obvious and profound. He sees children as being closest in God's image, unaffected by the dysfunctional culture we adults have created. It seems the only people who dislike him are Shiite Catholics.
Nick...don't misunderstand me, I do like this Pope...not that my opinion matters all that much. I am coming to the conclusion he is being captured by his own bureaucracy. A bureaucracy that promotes what they believe he should stand for...not necessarily what he believes he does stand for. Same thing happens in our US government.
As I said that is my tainted viewpoint based on a working knowledge of how a Diocesan bureaucracy works...and trust me, nothing I've seen within that world indicates acceptance of Pope Francis' ideals or teachings to date. Quite the opposite in fact. Maybe Fr Fox could lend his opinion as mine is rather weak given my short time as a Catholic.
Just know that I became Catholic due to the teaching and actions of a man I respect, who himself is a serious supporter of Pope Francis. And I have directly witnessed that man be attacked by the Diocesan bureaucrats with outright lies and conjured ideas.
See, I really do NOT think the Mafia is a problem of the first order for the Catholic Church, when there are so many other more immediate.
Ari, This Pope came from South America and has seen first hand the savagery of the drug trade. Indeed, the same day he spoke out against the mafia, he said cannabis is evil. I don't agree w/ him on that, but I understand his perspective. He comes from South America to Italy. In Southern Calabria he sees the same pure evil of the mafia in the drug trade. Then he sees a 3 year old murdered in cold blood. He was moved and acted. But, the excommunication was just a part of this that got the headlines. The act of going to the prisons and praying w/ both parents was hardly covered. This Pope understands human nature better than any Pope I have seen. He humbled himself confessing his theft of a rosary and how he carries that rosary w/ him to remind him that he, and all of us are flawed. This Pope then speaks eloquently about redemption as we are all sinners. This is some pretty Jesus like teachings. The Shiites had their Popes of late. The Church is dying in no small part because they preached only to the choir. This Pope may be the Church's salvation. And, it looks like we may need a new choir.
Excellent comment, nd.
Tim, Thanks. Hope all is well w/ you and the family.
The church isn't dying. It is facing challenges in the United States and most of the developing world because people want what they want regardless of what the church teaches. It is very strong and vibrant in the third world where they have gone back to basics.
If we change the doctrines of the church to embrace every fad and new social more that the secular world embraces we would certainly get a lot more people. On Christmas and Easter. Or when they need to get married or buried. But you won't see them the rest of the year. Sort of how it works now for a lot of people.
The Church might be better off if it sold off all of it's treasures and real estate and consolidated. Spend the money to help the poor and the sick. A smaller church is not necessarily a bad thing.
Of course no one is addressing the point that nominal Catholics like Andrew Cuomo and Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are not excommunicated for facilitating abortions. Voting for it. Making it easy and attractive. One abortion mill kills more innocents in one month than the Mafia did in their entire history.
Not a peep about that.
Maybe he is rethinking that. I confess I haven't heard this Pope talk much about that. I have to research it a little better.
I have heard a lot of stuff from this Pope that is very popular with the main stream media and the anti-catholic types. I will be happy to hear some solid home truths about Catholic doctrine stated in no uncertain terms that these people will not sign on to. It is not easy to be attacked like Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict was when they stood up for their Catholic beliefs.
This doesn't seem to be happening with Pope Francis. Why is that?
The choir just chimed in. He is singing, "Holy, holy, holy." He always goes to Mass. He has lived his entire life in the same neighborhood. The view is very clear from there, because he can see his entire world. The mafia is cool. People who don't attend Mass are anti Catholic and not worthy of salvation. It's all clear in his mind.
I do agree w/ selling all the art. This great Pope might just so that.
I will believe it when I see it.
Living in New York I see and meet more people from all over the world just walking down Court St.
The Mafia is the thing that is dead. It has been dead for quite a while. It is silly to make such a big thing about it. It was terrible that the child was killed but kids are killed every day. There is a human catastrophe going on at the border. Many children who are most likely Catholics or from Catholic families are being victimized. Why not put the spotlight on something like that? Ask for answer about who is doing this? Sending these children here and endangering them much more than the chance they would get caught in a Mafia crossfire?
It is way, way too early to say that this is a "Great Pope."
The mafia thrives in Calabria Mr. Know-it-all. It is stronger than the US Mafia was in it's heyday.
The "What about" game is what liberals play. There is so much pain and hatred in this world. I could list 500 "what about's" right off the type of my head. And, your comment about Court St. and the world is just what Althouse says when I bust her balls about not travelling. She has all cultures on the UW campus.
If you say so.
It must be one of the most pressing problems that deserves the ultimate hammer of excommunication and the publicity and attention that this action would generate.
So many other people who are doing so many other terrible things don't merit that I guess. Seems strange to me.
But what do I now. I live such a sheltered life in NYC. It's like Mayberry. Just with a lot more crime and stuff.
You can bust my balls about not traveling all you want. I don't care. This has nothing to do with that.
This has to do with the fact that you love this Pope and I am troubled by him. Deeply troubled. Mostly because of the people who are his biggest fans. Not you of course. But lots of others.
Time will tell. I am not making any final judgements at all. Not as though I what I think matters. I am just one person. Entitled to my opinion.
I am just disappointed by this Pope so far. I don't see it. I don't get it. There doesn't seem to be a there there. I want to give it time. But I just can't seem to buy it.
The last 3 posts here are the horseshit, provincial, sanctimonious, holier than thou, Trooper. We all know that is not the entire Trooper. The entire Trooper is much better than this Trooper. But, we all need our asses kicked once in awhile. You have needed one for a long time. I went easy on you because of your health problems. It's tough love. People who really love and care for you will use tough love.
Living in the same neighborhood your entire life has EVERYTHING to do w/ it. We have had clashes like this in the past, not about religion, but other topics. And those clashes came back to your incredibly provincial world view.
Fuck, when you're not digging in your heels in an argument like this you show some awareness of this flaw. WE ARE ALL FLAWED and sinners. This Pope has taught that better than any other Pope in my lifetime.
Now, Go make me a sandwich!
I don't consider this an ass kicking. I consider it a dispute among people who believe in much of the same things. I don't take it personal.
I don't get where I am being sanctimonious? I am far from holy. I am a lot bigger sinner than you Nick. But like you I know bullshit when I smell it. And I am not afraid to say it even if it goes against what everyone else thinks.
Even if it gets my friends mad at me.
The Nuns were always mad at me back in the day. How I get to be the one defending the way they used to do things is one of the strangest things that has ever happened to me.
It's just that when I see what is going on today I have to think to myself that they were right. And I am not afraid to say it no matter how mad it makes everyone.
Hey even Father Chris is telling me I am all wet about this Pope. We argue about this all the time. He has bought the whole package just like you.
I think youse guys are really jumping the gun.
I don't worry about us being friends. Nothing will change that. We have been through this before. We are very healthy in that regard. Our thoughts on religion are far apart. Our argument about this Pope encapsulates those stark differences. I defend the Church in other venues. I am well aware of the anti Catholic hatred out there. I'm not going to change your mind one iota. I know that. But, your obsession w/ abortion is unproductive. The PRESS made the excommunication the headline. It was imbedded in the much broader and Jesus like actions of this Pope of praying w/ the parents in prison. I bet you didn't know that until I commented about it. Be honest.
"Bought the whole package" Fuck you, man. I got paid good money by smart people to evaluate people. This guy is the real deal. Bet on it!
I didn't know it and it kind of proves my point. This Pope is being used as a cudgel and I don't think he gets it. He shouldn't give them the chance to misinterpret and twist his message. Unless that was the message he wanted to send.
I used to gamble a lot and now I only gamble on sure things. This Pope is the farthest thing you can get from a sure thing. He reminds me of John Paul I.
It is not an obsession with abortion. It is a simple question. Where is this Pope on abortion. Why doesn't he use the hammer on people who deserve it? Why did he pick these people at this time? If it is because of this one child then I guess you are right. One child vs. millions killed every year. It is not an obsession to point this out and ask a question.
Troop--
It sounds like you're waiting for this Pope to disappoint you. If he's around long enough, he surely will.
Think back to the Polish Pope's funeral. Both my bride and I laughed @ the MSM swooning over his stance on poverty, war, etc. No mention of his stance on abortion, contraception, etc. People pick what they like about a good Pope and ignore what they don't like. I think we both agree he was a great Pope? Well, Brian Williams, Andrea Mitchell, Diane Sawyer, Katie Couric, are some I distinctly remember waxing poetic. Do you really think this Pope reads his press clippings. I don't see a vain or pretentious bone in his body. We hate Althouse but we agree on topics w/ her. The fact that people you hate like the guy is not even close to dispositive. I think you project your high consumption of media and PR on him. Why not be positive, I know it's tough for a curmudgeon. Focus on what you like about this guy.
blake, Trooper is already disappointed because he hasn't gotten a pound of flesh from Catholic Dems.
Pope is an impossible job, literally.
Probably not a great idea to expect him to bang your temporal drum.
Padre Pia is big in Mafia country. You travel in southern Italty and his mug is everywhere.
Just sayin'
"Where is this Pope on abortion. Why doesn't he use the hammer on people who deserve it? Why did he pick these people at this time? If it is because of this one child then I guess you are right. One child vs. millions killed every year. It is not an obsession to point this out and ask a question."
"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ
The gospel of Jesus Christ is full of Truth and Grace. It not only speaks up, it stands alongside and invites and invites and invites others to see and hear differently. Less hammering, crucifying and cutting off of ears with swords and more touching others at the place of their greatest wound or need.
If the nuns with their rulers did not convey the truth of this grace to the children they taught, along with their anger over whatever was done to always make them mad, they did not model the fullness of Christ.
We are supposed to be gentle as doves and wiley as serpents when we go out into the world. Perhaps Pope Francis is modeling this to us?
My career immersed me in both the medical and legal profession @ a time of transition. I was more involved w/ the legal profession but I did a lot of medical malpractice work, working for attorneys that defended hospitals and doctors. When I started in the mid 70's, both professions were male dominated. I saw women have a profound affect on medicine. They brought the unique qualities to doctors that made it more kind, gentle, listening. Unfortunately, the legal profession, while getting a big influx of women, did not have that same positive effect. They were co-opted by the fiercely male influence. Hillary is a prime example.
The church has that same imbalance. I see Francis as the most balanced man in public life I can remember. You see it most clearly in the way he is w/ children. His love is profound and unabashed. More than anything else, that is what draws me to this gentle man. You see, that is how my old man was. And, he passed that on to me. When I see a baby in the grocery store I always give a big smile and almost invariably I get it back. I LOVE to play w/ kids. My daughter is a nanny and I have become like an uncle to them. I MUCH prefer kids to adults.
This brings me to our women. It takes a certain woman to hang around here. And, what I have noticed is they instinctively and generously provide their female perspective. Not as much as I would like, but I'm not a guilt tripper. I just appreciate what they offer. MamaM and Ruth Anne just graced us w/ their wisdom on a couple threads. We are blessed.
Ruth Anne nails it.
So does Mama and nd.
A little piece on the Holy Father's not kicking ass.
Tim, That is just like this excommunication story. The press didn't give the other 98% of the story and message. The Pope doesn't control the press.
Obama does.
Tim, I continued reading the other linked articles in your patheos link from Time and Salon. Hopefully our host will also. Good info.
I'm appreciating the link you provided, TT. Not only was it timely and on point, I wouldn't have found it on my own, and that marks another one of those times when the dastardly internet allows the person using it to function as a point of light.
ND, I don't recall hearing you on such a roll before, but it was good stuff, better than blog drama for the balance present, and the way it moved discussion forward.
What I remember most clearly from Pope John Paul's funeral was the way the wind blew the pages of the Book of the Gospel as it lay open in front of his casket. Now people, other than and in addition to Catholics, are watching Pope Francis, hoping to catch a glimpse of the Spirit of God moving through him.
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"…
Thanks, Mama. "Patheos" is a great resource for religious people in general. The mother hen of the Catholic section is Elizabeth Scalia. (No relation to the Justice) Her blog is, or was, "The Anchoress." I'm not sure she maintains it anymore under that name. She was, and remains, a pretty conservative person. But especially since she became a Benedictine Oblate, she has adopted a more deeply religious tone. I think her approach echoes the Holy Father's and is exactly what's needed to look a little more deeply into things.
Oh, she can still spill purple prose all over Nancy Pelosi when the time comes, but there is something deeper and more removed I sense in her—and feel in myself—as we grow older and face bigger issues than, say, Obama's relationship with the IRS.
Scalia is worth reading for all thoughtful people.
One of the things that shocks me (even though it's been predicted my entire life) is how ignorant we are. I mean, specifically, how the arguments are being made in popular media are the arguments of ignoramuses.
Take, for example, the recent kerfuffle over "the government has a monopoly on force", which gave members of the Press vapors. These are our "political elite", folks.
One of my favorite movies is Inherit The Wind, but it's got a completely absurd premise: That a biblical scholar (William Jennings Bryan, as portrayed by Fredric March) would be stymied by the simplistic questions asked by Clarence Darrow (as portrayed by Spencer Tracy).
As if nobody in 2,000 years had ever thought to ask "Hey, how long is a day in Genesis?" And as if St. Augustine in the 4th century hadn't, for example, thought the six days to be metaphorical—he thought all creation was instantaneous! As if there hadn't been a variety of arguments made for varying lengths of time over the millennia.
As if, indeed, the Hebrew word "yowm" in Genesis couldn't mean just about any indeterminate amount of time.
There was a time when a person would be embarrassed to hold forth so fervently on things they knew nothing about. It's almost as if the ease of researching and learning about things excuses us from actually having to do so.
*end rant*
Blake,
You're not foolin' me. There'll be other rants.
MamaM, It's not my nature to discuss religion. My libertarianism is a big part of that. But, for me, religion is personal and private. Combine that w/ my iconoclastic view of what religion really is, at least to me, and discussions are fraught w/ even more danger than usual. As I said, I can read people. I am not one to be conned. This Pope I believe is a gift from God. There's no way he should have been elected, but he was. Much of life is serendipitous, I don't think this was. Thank you for your kind words. They mean a lot to me.
Nick--
re The Pope being elected
If the Church isn't the place for miracles, where is?
blake, I know you're not a sport's fan, but when you tee up a great ball bust I have to take it. Some say a Miracle occurred in Shea Stadium in 1969.
Heh.
Also, lest anyone have any doubt, Scalia still blogs as The Anchoress. Here, she delivers a spanking to Chelsea Clinton, who is apparently the Gwyneth Paltrow of politics.
I saw that and thought, "It's nice she can revert to the full-Anchoress asskicking when the time comes."
Most of what I read from her these days is introductory material to other blogs on the Catholic section of Patheos. If you read Patheos as I do, The Anchoress kind of fades into the general mix. As I say, she also has gotten less overtly political and more philosophical as she became a Benedictine. In fact, she banned the words, "conservative" and "liberal" from the blogs she hosts, as being intellectually lazy and only productive of pointless and potentially sinful discord. Her position among Catholic bloggers on Patheos is like Lem's on his blog, but with more bloggers and a lot more potential rancor in the whole mix. So far, she's done a fantastic job, IMHO.
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