So did Margot, unfortunately the level that is therapeutic can quickly become toxic. Even therapeutic levels are not without nasty side effects. Hopefully there have been improvements in drugs that treat bipolar disorder since I was a psych nurse, 15 or so years ago.
Bipolar disorder is very sad, many of the sufferers actually do amazing things when they are just slightly bipolar, the problem comes when they become manic. I've seen mania get to the point in which they become psychotic.
I based my plutonium bit on what I read in Wikipedia, which as we all know, is never wrong.
"Plutonium is the heaviest primordial element by virtue of its most stable isotope, plutonium-244, whose half-life of about 80 million years is just long enough for the element to be found in trace quantities in nature."
So there is probably no future in trying to mine it.
As for bipolar disease is, as Allie says, sad. I had a brother who had it, he was brilliant, productive, but sadly, almost always on. I mean ON! Full throttle. He got a lot done but he burned out early. Sad, as he was truly a good guy.
@Sixty: I had to look up and verify your claim of naturally occurring Pu. The story of Glenn Seaborg first making it at Berkeley is a good one. So is the accidental discovery of Tc, the first synthetic element. Technetium also occurs naturally, but not in any useful amounts.
In a totally unrelated nerdy pursuit, has anyone ever had fun playing with your photo editor? As you may have noticed I've been playing around with mine for the last couple of days. In my current avatar, I didn't alter the hue at all, merely tweaked the saturation to the max.
That got me thinking about the human eye and what colors comprise the iris, turns out that there are several different colors present in the human iris, take a photo of a close up of your own eye and see what you find by maximizing the saturation.
As long as humans have been around The only pigment in eyes is brown, And all us green, grey and blue eyed types Are low brown Rayleigh scattering fakes. Yipes!
Or is that just propaganda from Wiki? We all know they're agenda driven tricky. Well....I do. :^(
Ricpic, are you dismissing scientific data that comes from Wiki because you feel it has a liberal bias or agenda ? What source do you think would be less agenda driven? Curious.
I was finally able to get over to my other place today and sawed up a half ton of giant red oak slabs. I cut them down a bit so I could load them into my truck and haul them to my new place. Much work, but it was good to get something done and get my mind off my cat who has been ailing for a few days. He lost one hind leg to cancer 8 months ago and last week he threw a clot which lodged in his remaining hind leg. The vet won't place odds on the cat's chances of surviving, but the little kitty is hanging in there and fighting for his life - he ate a bit today, still not big on drinking, but I got 5 ml of water in him on my own. In the morning he will go back to the vet for subcutaneous fluids.
But during all of this I am reminded of the story about giving pills to cats. Have been living that for a few days now - it's kind of difficult to handle a tiny pill while wearing gloves, that's all I can say about that.
I'm cat sitting my daughters Cuban cat while she's in Afghanistan. She is a strange cat, very skinny tail, fat body, short legs, tawny tiger stripes. We think she may have been a feral cat, native to Cuba. My daughter got her when she was stationed at GTMO.
A while back my other daughter was in Miami and saw a another cat from there, had the same short legs and skinny tail, also obtained in Cuba.
Allie - I posted that poem more in chagrin that blue eyedness is a lack of brown pigment than in doubt that what Wiki states is true. Though as a scientific illiterate I have to take what they say on faith...and it's true, I don't trust them.
It's enough to get a guy down that genetically speaking everything about him is recessive or a lack. ;^(
I mean why couldn't Heidi Klum's kids all be blue eyed blondes?!
Actually there could be something wrong with resessive genes that both parents possess that manifests itself in disease in the child. Worse would be disease that is produced by a dominant gene, that only one parent could pass along, oh well that's extend of my very limited knowledge of genetics.
The thing about Wiki is that it is biased towards unchecked fact. I found an untruth quite by accident and memorialized it here if you care for one data point.
But it's free and we all like free, right? Can't live with it--can't live without it.
As Ron is fond of saying--it's a great starting place.
The other thing, Mighty Pollo, is, if it is wrong....fix it! Even this lowly fish did so...There were two 1965 movies entitled 'Harlow' and someone had GR in the wrong one....so I fixed it!
Well then if Wiki allows erroneous information to be corrected by the public, then there is no intentual bias. So I guess checking another source or two is a good idea , huh?
According to Real Men Do Love Cats: What kind of guy is a cat lover?
He looks like any other man: tall, short, "buff," slender, pudgy, youthful or mature. You probably wouldn't be able to pick him out of a crowd. But if you talked to him for awhile, you'd find that he has an ingrained sense of self, without being arrogant, and that he has the ability to laugh at himself (absolutely necessary when owned by a cat). Although he may own them, he doesn't need the typical entrapments of masculinity. He is his own person, and generally is looked up to by others. He may even be macho in appearance, but he retains a sensitivity that surfaces at unexpected times.
Yorkie points for that set-up. The show with the blonde dog was almost enough to lure me back into posting a comment. If I had, I would have said "ARF!".
Bias is an alteration of truth. It doesn't matter which way it goes, 'cause it's not truth.
In days of old, this bias would be toward an interpretation of church dogma, for example, but today it's fleets of post-modernist leftists insisting that truth is just a construct, so—actually, come to think of it, it's exactly the same, except that they don't realize they're a church.
Point is, it's not truth, and therefore of no use or interest.
Blake, your statment actually made me look up what people think comprises truth, the theories about how to determine truth. Well it all is so philosophical, it's above my head truthfully(ha).
Around here I have 5 pets, 4 males, one bitch. She rules the roost and is the best dog in the history of the world, not that I have a bias about that, mind you.
Theories (scientific and otherwise) model truth. Engineering tests models.
But we don't have to get that fancy. Some people believe that everything should be altered to fit their political beliefs, and that this is justified. It's not a lie if they believe it, right?
So, if a person can readily admit that they are not the arbiters of what is absolute truth, because of their human shortcomings, we then can be a step closer to recognizing truth?
It doesn't take much intellectual maturity, curiosity or experience to admit that empiric knowledge is both the most accurate way to understand the natural universe and necessarily incomplete, limited by what people are able to perceive and measure.
But what I don't get is when people who have an arbitrarily subjective ideal of truth, or of skepticism, for that matter, make it clear that almost no amount of evidence is good enough for them.
It's fine to declare what amount of evidence it will take to change your mind on something, or even to swear that no amount of evidence will matter, and that a transcendent, utopian "truth" untouched by any and all factual experience is more important.
But to jerk people's chain and tell them that the objective evidence that they look to is no good, without showing your cards and choosing which of the above two scenarios fits your approach, is disingenuous bullshit.
When it comes to human events, people, stories, an accurate understanding of events becomes even trickier. But that doesn't obviate the supremacy of objective, empiric, observable fact.
It's one thing to say that complete objectivity is impossible, just as it is completely acceptable, and understood, that absolutely unfettered perception of everything is impossible.
But to reject it out of hand is not a feasible way for a civilization to exist.
IOW, just declaring that complete, 100% objectivity is impossible, doesn't excuse someone for refusing to strive for it, or for refusing to appreciate it.
The most rational observation regarding the gap between evidence and cultural norms is that our ability to measure and reason has outstripped our ability to believe things that don't flatter us.
There are different perspectives. Subjective realities. Everyone lives in their own universe, in addition to the one we share.
But it's remarkable how much of what is considered "subjective" comes down to an objective reality that is misunderstood, mis-perceived or distorted.
Let's take a non-political example, like, autism and vaccines. I don't think autism is caused by vaccines (though vaccines can cause problems). When I wanted to research this the Amish came up, and I found all four possible logical configurations:
The Amish don't vaccinate their kids and their kids don't get autism.
The Amish don't vaccinate their kids and their kids get autism anyway.
The Amish do vaccinate their kids and their kids get autism.
The Amish do vaccinate their kids and their kids =don't= get austim.
Now, this should be easy enough to find out? It's two objective facts! And yet, short of actually interviewing the Amish myself and surveying their children, I'm unable to find, in this Internet age, the objective facts.
Both sides feel justified in distorting the truth. This doesn't mean the truth isn't there.
Even Heisenberg had to empirically discover that, at the fundamental level of atomic physics, the more you know about one of a particle's fundamental properties, the less it's possible to know about certain others.
So I'm not necessarily all that quick to castigate the view that something short of absolute knowledge will have to do. After all, once we know everything, there is no longer any reason for science, as an institution, to exist. The scientific process would theoretically no longer be necessary.
That said, medical knowledge is a good example of non-political limitations to human understanding. Medicine, like all science, is limited not only to what we can measure, but to what we've endeavored to study. Given all the possible, and not-so-obvious links between all possible medical phenomena, this can add up to a lot of stuff.
Given the number of medical studies I've had to review over the course of my (still young) career, and the number of back-and-forth paradigm shifts I've had to witness, Blake raises a good point. Why not just look at rates of autism in Amish communities?
I suppose we could. Then the issue goes to the logistics of getting all those Amish people to be available to study. Maybe it sounds easy, but there are always recruiting challenges in a medical study, no less so in a less, well, "conventional" and open community.
But that's not to say it can't be done. It's just to point out, in a very mundane way, that people have expectations of medical science (to exemplify one scientific field), where their expectations of available data are conflated with the reality of what data is out there.
Research takes time and money, like anything else in life. That's why it really bothers me when it's alleged that researchers without large reserves of money to spare - which is the case for most of them, have a political agenda. Politics always follows power and there is so much more power in money in this society than in a guy with a lab coat publishing findings that he knows are only the newest, and best approximation of the truth - at best - and that a better (or more accurate) approximation of the truth will undoubtedly come soon afterward.
It's like calculus, really. The process, that is. Society's been conditioned to see it differently, but that's because they've not been inspired to understand how much imagination true scientific discovery requires.
O Ritmo Segundo said... IOW, just declaring that complete, 100% objectivity is impossible, doesn't excuse someone for refusing to strive for it, or for refusing to appreciate it.
Using blake's example, what is a parent to do (especially an ignorant one) faced with the choice to vaccinate their child? How is possible to make an informed choice without risk of getting it wrong?
Or take Trooper's paraben example. Assume there is no replacement for paraben. What about the risks one takes in leaving it out? Bacteria and fungi are serious risks.
From the wiki: "I personally feel there is a very strong correlation between the underarm hygiene habits and breast cancer," said immunologist Dr. Kris McGrath, the author of the study."link
Mediocre spirits demand of science a kind of certainty which it cannot give, a sort of religious satisfaction. Only the real, rare, true scientific minds can endure doubt, which is attached to all our knowledge.
By getting the information, and by having access to credible purveyors of information. They actually exist, you know. And if it's not an online encyclopedia, then professional medical organizations, who have been sought more and moreso over the last ten years to construct guidelines and "best practices" will do the trick. Hollywood has made stars out of them as well, so I know that Dr. Oz and Dr. Drew are going to be available even through the din of your "TV-Media-Industrial-Complex" to give some credible advice.
As for parabens, I have a vague recollection of some sort of ruckus, but I have no idea what it's about. Of course, the autism-vaccine thing was bunk, as far as I know. Skyrocketing rates of Asperger (or what is likely to be "right-hemisphere autism") may, it is anecdotally related, derive from the professionalization of highly insular engineering types. I don't know that it's been epidemiologically, rigorously studied, but it would make sense.
If they say that Silicon Valley and similar areas are seeing especially high rates, my theoretical speculation would be that Asperger is like Sickle Cell Disease, genetically speaking. Someone heterozygous for it may have genetic leverage in terms of engineering/science/math ability, just like someone heterozygous for Sickle Cell has increased resistance to malaria. But with two alleles, you'd get impaired functioning, in the form of Asperger and anemia, respectively.
But physicians understand the meaning of anecdote. They're not always good at understanding its limitations. But they know that limited, personal observations are sometimes interesting starting points for real study.
I don't see why it is such a concern that someone will erroneously/spuriously take to an early draft of a poorly edited Wikipedia page on a topic before they would look to see what the Mayo clinic's consumer information has made available to the public on the same topic.
If someone would do such a thing, I don't know what to say. It's hard to have much sympathy. There are user-friendly, highly professional, credible, consumer oriented sites that are easily available and accessible to everybody. And for someone to say that what some dood added in as a prank or to be controversial on a publicly edited encyclopedia would take precedence, well, I guess it's hard for me to relate. It's never the sort of thing that my mom would have done.
Now in the case of experimental medicine or obscure findings related to desperate and devastating illnesses in which there hasn't been much progress or intensive study, that's something else entirely. But why wouldn't it be?
Hume said something similar to Freud, but I think the political disconnect has to do with the fact that what he left unaddressed was the definition of evidence. Scientists have to contend with preponderant evidence a lot of the time. Since it's taken as a given that knowledge is always open to being further debated, refined, revised, added to, etc., there would never be any knowledge, no matter how provisional, unless certain standards for what constituted evidence were agreed to. Beyond that, a lot of the time, superiority is just an issue of preponderant evidence. Not merely preponderant, but usually very preponderant. And with the stipulation that the standards for what constitutes evidence on both sides are strictly scrutinized, as well.
Another thing about autism/Asperger's is that what I've heard is that the increase of autism and Aspergers correlates exactly with a decline in other forms of brain injury.
What that would mean, if true, is that nothing is changing at all, and it's just a matter of re-labeling with a more fashionable disease. (People will boast of autism/Asperger's while nobody is proud of being retarded/spastic/cerbreal palsy/etc.)
I've not been able to read up that much on autism in general, Blake. But I've done a lot of reading up on Aspergers. And this is a community with high intellectual and verbal functioning. They, themselves, are pretty capable and quick to contest any diagnostic anomalies that strike them as wrong. And there is almost no controversy over the understanding that it is either genetic, or at least congenital (present at birth).
Aspergers is now being completely combined with the autism diagnosis, rather than just "a part of" it, so the patterns of disease acquisition are even more likely to be considered linked.
Personally, I think it was wrong to combine the two diagnoses into one, but that doesn't mean that I disagree that many/most of the basic connections in terms of pathology are still there.
That's all the more reason to consider that civilization's preference for logical/linguistic/mathematic/left hemisphere talent may have played a role in the prevalence of Aspergers.
OTOH, autism by itself might just represent "left hemisphere" impairments, which could have been impairment of the section of the brain more highly prized by recent evolution.
A "right hemisphere" impairment would match up with the impaired ability to read facial expressions, prosody, body gestures, social, symbolic and non-rational cognition, as is seen in Aspergers. That might be a way to compensate for "hyperactive" left hemisphere development. Further, imaging studies seem to back this up.
There's actually a stout, red-headed, German-born nurse at the place where I work who sometimes does duty on the psychiatric ward. She's pretty funny. Very direct and questioning everything, and she talks like a character off of Hogan's Heroes.
When one of my colleagues would get off the phone with her, he'd shout "Hoooooogannnnn!".
Given all the recipes you've told us about, I'll let you on something very simple and organic I'm chomping away on right now. I got some really awesome whipped, organic honey from a local apiary who sells his stuff at the weekly farmers' markets. I'm spreading it on light and fluffy torn pieces of challah that I pick up every now and then at the local Whole Foods.
Very simple but very tasty. Sometimes non-complicated things are good.
Honey is still sugar, it's natural yes, but still plays havoc with insulin levels. For those who adhere to a lowcarb diet, keeping insulin levels steady is a key to the success of the diet.
Actually, I got all creative in the sweeteners section tonight. As long as you're making your own, I saw this new additive, natural sweetener, that's become all the rage lately. Starts with an "S". Sera.., I don't know. It's like an organic sweetener of some sort.
Berries are sweet and the yogurt isn't terribly tart as commercial Greek yogurt. It doesn't really need the honey, but I would indulge once in a while if tempted enough, I'm not that rigid.
How about this, next time you swear at me, do it in German. And only on this blog. That way it can be judged and settled by a fair-minded audience. And salivated over.
So what's the story? Are you going to make up and play nice or do you have something to prove, now? I'm not into the sado-masochistic thing. Way too, er, continental.
Just let me know. I'm not above handing things off to your pigeon friend, you know. ;-)
Then we should either make-up, figure out and accept what the problem was/is, or I'll just leave you to your gang here and not hang out anymore. This tension is really bugging the shit out of me.
I mean, I enjoyed that last comment thread with Blake and Chick, but I know how you like to swoop in and strut around. And it won't bother me. Unless there's something that's bugging you.
I hate Sarah Jessica Parker, Robin Williams, Tim Robbins, Susan Saradon, the BJ Hunnicut guy, brussel sprouts, the Boston Red Sox, commies and well, lawyers.
162 comments:
Lois Lane.
You're kidding.
I'l have an order of est margot?
Margot I kid you not.
Being a psych nurse and a good person, you'll empathize w/ Margot's bi-polar battle.
The earth is bipolar. It's a natural state.
Well it is a natural state for Margot. Poison ivy is natural too.
Anthrax is natural. Plutonium, too!
The earth needs lithium.
So did Margot, unfortunately the level that is therapeutic can quickly become toxic. Even therapeutic levels are not without nasty side effects. Hopefully there have been improvements in drugs that treat bipolar disorder since I was a psych nurse, 15 or so years ago.
Bipolar disorder is very sad, many of the sufferers actually do amazing things when they are just slightly bipolar, the problem comes when they become manic. I've seen mania get to the point in which they become psychotic.
"Plutonium, too!"
Well not really**.
But craziness and a Hollywood actress? Yep.
** Sorry, my scientific nerd got the better of me.
Bipolar is a scary condition. I hope she is better than she was.
I based my plutonium bit on what I read in Wikipedia, which as we all know, is never wrong.
"Plutonium is the heaviest primordial element by virtue of its most stable isotope, plutonium-244, whose half-life of about 80 million years is just long enough for the element to be found in trace quantities in nature."
So there is probably no future in trying to mine it.
As for bipolar disease is, as Allie says, sad. I had a brother who had it, he was brilliant, productive, but sadly, almost always on. I mean ON! Full throttle. He got a lot done but he burned out early. Sad, as he was truly a good guy.
I saw the recent Indian Jones movie and she has really gained weight.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Her tits were much larger than they were before.
tits.
tits dealing with snakes.
milky, large, supple tits.
tits.
Titus, you must still be drunk.
The earth needs lithium.
Lithosphere.
I lisp when I say that.
@Sixty: I had to look up and verify your claim of naturally occurring Pu. The story of Glenn Seaborg first making it at Berkeley is a good one. So is the accidental discovery of Tc, the first synthetic element. Technetium also occurs naturally, but not in any useful amounts.
Berkeley needs more plutonium.
Why doesn't spell checker catch these things?!
Lithuania has massive amounts of Plutonium.
I read that Pluto has massive amounts of Lithuanium.
@Aliie: Lither than thou?
I have a brother who is a luthier. I call him Lex.
Off to the gym to pump irony...
Lithle people inhabit Pluto.
TMI.
Of lithle consequence.
A lithle goes a long way.
Nerds!
*jealous*
I'm lithe but not lithle.
Being lithe is no lithle accomplishment.
That's no lithe.
One wouldn't want to be stiff after all.
In a totally unrelated nerdy pursuit, has anyone ever had fun playing with your photo editor? As you may have noticed I've been playing around with mine for the last couple of days. In my current avatar, I didn't alter the hue at all, merely tweaked the saturation to the max.
That got me thinking about the human eye and what colors comprise the iris, turns out that there are several different colors present in the human iris, take a photo of a close up of your own eye and see what you find by maximizing the saturation.
Wiki on eye color
How sweet of you to mention iridium, another favorite element of mine.
As long as humans have been around
The only pigment in eyes is brown,
And all us green, grey and blue eyed types
Are low brown Rayleigh scattering fakes.
Yipes!
Or is that just propaganda from Wiki?
We all know they're agenda driven tricky.
Well....I do. :^(
Ricpic, are you dismissing scientific data that comes from Wiki because you feel it has a liberal bias or agenda ? What source do you think would be less agenda driven? Curious.
Adam, on looking
Eve straight in the eye
Could have saved us all
Trouble if he said
With a sigh, No dear
The snake lied. Now with
Fruit taken in, through
Live dust from the ground
You're so full of shit
Your eyes are all brown
I was finally able to get over to my other place today and sawed up a half ton of giant red oak slabs. I cut them down a bit so I could load them into my truck and haul them to my new place. Much work, but it was good to get something done and get my mind off my cat who has been ailing for a few days. He lost one hind leg to cancer 8 months ago and last week he threw a clot which lodged in his remaining hind leg. The vet won't place odds on the cat's chances of surviving, but the little kitty is hanging in there and fighting for his life - he ate a bit today, still not big on drinking, but I got 5 ml of water in him on my own. In the morning he will go back to the vet for subcutaneous fluids.
But during all of this I am reminded of the story about giving pills to cats. Have been living that for a few days now - it's kind of difficult to handle a tiny pill while wearing gloves, that's all I can say about that.
Ah Sixty you have a soft side.
I do. I really like my animals. I even like some humans. ;^)
I'm cat sitting my daughters Cuban cat while she's in Afghanistan. She is a strange cat, very skinny tail, fat body, short legs, tawny tiger stripes. We think she may have been a feral cat, native to Cuba. My daughter got her when she was stationed at GTMO.
A while back my other daughter was in Miami and saw a another cat from there, had the same short legs and skinny tail, also obtained in Cuba.
Guys who like cats are rare.
Why be ordinary?
Allie - I posted that poem more in chagrin that blue eyedness is a lack of brown pigment than in doubt that what Wiki states is true. Though as a scientific illiterate I have to take what they say on faith...and it's true, I don't trust them.
It's enough to get a guy down that genetically speaking everything about him is recessive or a lack. ;^(
I mean why couldn't Heidi Klum's kids all be blue eyed blondes?!
Ric, I dont think Wiki has a liberal bias in posting most scientific data. I suppose one could argue that they may have a bias toward global warming.
Nothing wrong with recessive genes:)
Sixty, at risk of sounding like Althouse, ordinary is sooooo boring.
That is something I have never been accused of being.
The think about Wiki's bias isn't so much that it's "liberal" or "conservative", but that it is.
Actually there could be something wrong with resessive genes that both parents possess that manifests itself in disease in the child. Worse would be disease that is produced by a dominant gene, that only one parent could pass along, oh well that's extend of my very limited knowledge of genetics.
Blake, sorry that question went to you, how is Wiki biased? To be biased one must lean or favor one way over another, correct?
The thing about Wiki is that it is biased towards unchecked fact. I found an untruth quite by accident and memorialized it here if you care for one data point.
But it's free and we all like free, right? Can't live with it--can't live without it.
As Ron is fond of saying--it's a great starting place.
The other thing, Mighty Pollo, is, if it is wrong....fix it! Even this lowly fish did so...There were two 1965 movies entitled 'Harlow' and someone had GR in the wrong one....so I fixed it!
Well then if Wiki allows erroneous information to be corrected by the public, then there is no intentual bias. So I guess checking another source or two is a good idea , huh?
Guys who like cats are rare.
A old catard according to a second source.
According to Real Men Do Love Cats:
What kind of guy is a cat lover?
He looks like any other man: tall, short, "buff," slender, pudgy, youthful or mature. You probably wouldn't be able to pick him out of a crowd. But if you talked to him for awhile, you'd find that he has an ingrained sense of self, without being arrogant, and that he has the ability to laugh at himself (absolutely necessary when owned by a cat). Although he may own them, he doesn't need the typical entrapments of masculinity. He is his own person, and generally is looked up to by others. He may even be macho in appearance, but he retains a sensitivity that surfaces at unexpected times.
5 males, two of them feline, at the M house.
Most guys like dogs though. They want to adopt one but their wives want only one smelly old pussy in the house.
Or maybe that only happens in Wisconsin. Just sayn'
Yorkie points for that set-up. The show with the blonde dog was almost enough to lure me back into posting a comment. If I had, I would have said "ARF!".
Our kitties aren't stinky here in Wisconsin! They groom themselves,licking until they are clean and their fur is shiny.
Allie,
Bias is an alteration of truth. It doesn't matter which way it goes, 'cause it's not truth.
In days of old, this bias would be toward an interpretation of church dogma, for example, but today it's fleets of post-modernist leftists insisting that truth is just a construct, so—actually, come to think of it, it's exactly the same, except that they don't realize they're a church.
Point is, it's not truth, and therefore of no use or interest.
Blake, who decides what is truth? Is there a litmus test to determine truth? How do we mere mortals determine who's interpretation of truth is truth?
We can't.
Blake, your statment actually made me look up what people think comprises truth, the theories about how to determine truth. Well it all is so philosophical, it's above my head truthfully(ha).
I go by my instincts and empirical data.
So is truth both objective and subjective? I think so. But now my head hurts.
MamaM - that paragraph described me very well.
Around here I have 5 pets, 4 males, one bitch. She rules the roost and is the best dog in the history of the world, not that I have a bias about that, mind you.
>>Blake, who decides what is truth?
Nobody. That's why it's truth.
Blake, how do you recognize truth? To determine truth, doesn't one have to test it somehow?
Theories (scientific and otherwise) model truth. Engineering tests models.
But we don't have to get that fancy. Some people believe that everything should be altered to fit their political beliefs, and that this is justified. It's not a lie if they believe it, right?
Well yes it is a lie if reliable evidence says its not the truth.
Well, look at all these people, Dems and Reps, piling on Newt Gingrich. "He resigned in disgrace!"
But what actually happened was that Dems wanted him out so they filed a bunch of bogus charges against him, all but one dismissed at the time.
The one not dismissed was a fairly picayune charge he was exonerated on a few years later--by the IRS.
But we can't get enough of repeating those lies. Like Palin saying she could see her Russia from her house.
Doesn't have to be true, just has to serve the narrative.
And the narrative, by definition, is a lie.
For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes.
What would be peachy would be if everyone would say: "I too easily believe untruths about people whom I dislike."
Instead it's a game of chicken.
So, if a person can readily admit that they are not the arbiters of what is absolute truth, because of their human shortcomings, we then can be a step closer to recognizing truth?
To thine own self be true?
To thine own self be true?
That's why I like I ingenuity. And dislike disingenuity.
I hope you're not being disingenuous.
It doesn't take much intellectual maturity, curiosity or experience to admit that empiric knowledge is both the most accurate way to understand the natural universe and necessarily incomplete, limited by what people are able to perceive and measure.
But what I don't get is when people who have an arbitrarily subjective ideal of truth, or of skepticism, for that matter, make it clear that almost no amount of evidence is good enough for them.
It's fine to declare what amount of evidence it will take to change your mind on something, or even to swear that no amount of evidence will matter, and that a transcendent, utopian "truth" untouched by any and all factual experience is more important.
But to jerk people's chain and tell them that the objective evidence that they look to is no good, without showing your cards and choosing which of the above two scenarios fits your approach, is disingenuous bullshit.
When it comes to human events, people, stories, an accurate understanding of events becomes even trickier. But that doesn't obviate the supremacy of objective, empiric, observable fact.
It's one thing to say that complete objectivity is impossible, just as it is completely acceptable, and understood, that absolutely unfettered perception of everything is impossible.
But to reject it out of hand is not a feasible way for a civilization to exist.
IOW, just declaring that complete, 100% objectivity is impossible, doesn't excuse someone for refusing to strive for it, or for refusing to appreciate it.
The most rational observation regarding the gap between evidence and cultural norms is that our ability to measure and reason has outstripped our ability to believe things that don't flatter us.
There are different perspectives. Subjective realities. Everyone lives in their own universe, in addition to the one we share.
But it's remarkable how much of what is considered "subjective" comes down to an objective reality that is misunderstood, mis-perceived or distorted.
Let's take a non-political example, like, autism and vaccines. I don't think autism is caused by vaccines (though vaccines can cause problems). When I wanted to research this the Amish came up, and I found all four possible logical configurations:
The Amish don't vaccinate their kids and their kids don't get autism.
The Amish don't vaccinate their kids and their kids get autism anyway.
The Amish do vaccinate their kids and their kids get autism.
The Amish do vaccinate their kids and their kids =don't= get austim.
Now, this should be easy enough to find out? It's two objective facts! And yet, short of actually interviewing the Amish myself and surveying their children, I'm unable to find, in this Internet age, the objective facts.
Both sides feel justified in distorting the truth. This doesn't mean the truth isn't there.
Even Heisenberg had to empirically discover that, at the fundamental level of atomic physics, the more you know about one of a particle's fundamental properties, the less it's possible to know about certain others.
So I'm not necessarily all that quick to castigate the view that something short of absolute knowledge will have to do. After all, once we know everything, there is no longer any reason for science, as an institution, to exist. The scientific process would theoretically no longer be necessary.
That said, medical knowledge is a good example of non-political limitations to human understanding. Medicine, like all science, is limited not only to what we can measure, but to what we've endeavored to study. Given all the possible, and not-so-obvious links between all possible medical phenomena, this can add up to a lot of stuff.
Given the number of medical studies I've had to review over the course of my (still young) career, and the number of back-and-forth paradigm shifts I've had to witness, Blake raises a good point. Why not just look at rates of autism in Amish communities?
I suppose we could. Then the issue goes to the logistics of getting all those Amish people to be available to study. Maybe it sounds easy, but there are always recruiting challenges in a medical study, no less so in a less, well, "conventional" and open community.
But that's not to say it can't be done. It's just to point out, in a very mundane way, that people have expectations of medical science (to exemplify one scientific field), where their expectations of available data are conflated with the reality of what data is out there.
Research takes time and money, like anything else in life. That's why it really bothers me when it's alleged that researchers without large reserves of money to spare - which is the case for most of them, have a political agenda. Politics always follows power and there is so much more power in money in this society than in a guy with a lab coat publishing findings that he knows are only the newest, and best approximation of the truth - at best - and that a better (or more accurate) approximation of the truth will undoubtedly come soon afterward.
It's like calculus, really. The process, that is. Society's been conditioned to see it differently, but that's because they've not been inspired to understand how much imagination true scientific discovery requires.
Einstein understood it, though.
O Ritmo Segundo said...
IOW, just declaring that complete, 100% objectivity is impossible, doesn't excuse someone for refusing to strive for it, or for refusing to appreciate it.
Using blake's example, what is a parent to do (especially an ignorant one) faced with the choice to vaccinate their child? How is possible to make an informed choice without risk of getting it wrong?
Or take Trooper's paraben example. Assume there is no replacement for paraben. What about the risks one takes in leaving it out? Bacteria and fungi are serious risks.
From the wiki: "I personally feel there is a very strong correlation between the underarm hygiene habits and breast cancer," said immunologist Dr. Kris McGrath, the author of the study." link
"Einstein understood it, though."
So did Freud:
Mediocre spirits demand of science a kind of certainty which it cannot give, a sort of religious satisfaction. Only the real, rare, true scientific minds can endure doubt, which is attached to all our knowledge.
By getting the information, and by having access to credible purveyors of information. They actually exist, you know. And if it's not an online encyclopedia, then professional medical organizations, who have been sought more and moreso over the last ten years to construct guidelines and "best practices" will do the trick. Hollywood has made stars out of them as well, so I know that Dr. Oz and Dr. Drew are going to be available even through the din of your "TV-Media-Industrial-Complex" to give some credible advice.
So Freud was right too, then.
As for parabens, I have a vague recollection of some sort of ruckus, but I have no idea what it's about. Of course, the autism-vaccine thing was bunk, as far as I know. Skyrocketing rates of Asperger (or what is likely to be "right-hemisphere autism") may, it is anecdotally related, derive from the professionalization of highly insular engineering types. I don't know that it's been epidemiologically, rigorously studied, but it would make sense.
If they say that Silicon Valley and similar areas are seeing especially high rates, my theoretical speculation would be that Asperger is like Sickle Cell Disease, genetically speaking. Someone heterozygous for it may have genetic leverage in terms of engineering/science/math ability, just like someone heterozygous for Sickle Cell has increased resistance to malaria. But with two alleles, you'd get impaired functioning, in the form of Asperger and anemia, respectively.
But physicians understand the meaning of anecdote. They're not always good at understanding its limitations. But they know that limited, personal observations are sometimes interesting starting points for real study.
I don't see why it is such a concern that someone will erroneously/spuriously take to an early draft of a poorly edited Wikipedia page on a topic before they would look to see what the Mayo clinic's consumer information has made available to the public on the same topic.
If someone would do such a thing, I don't know what to say. It's hard to have much sympathy. There are user-friendly, highly professional, credible, consumer oriented sites that are easily available and accessible to everybody. And for someone to say that what some dood added in as a prank or to be controversial on a publicly edited encyclopedia would take precedence, well, I guess it's hard for me to relate. It's never the sort of thing that my mom would have done.
Now in the case of experimental medicine or obscure findings related to desperate and devastating illnesses in which there hasn't been much progress or intensive study, that's something else entirely. But why wouldn't it be?
The thing about the autism/vaccination thing is that it's not just the Amish.
I've heard the Japanese government suspended vaccines for children under five, addressing another concern of anti-vaccine folks.
But I can't find any data from that. I can't figure out if it didn't happen, or it happened and was aborted, etc.
Hume said something similar to Freud, but I think the political disconnect has to do with the fact that what he left unaddressed was the definition of evidence. Scientists have to contend with preponderant evidence a lot of the time. Since it's taken as a given that knowledge is always open to being further debated, refined, revised, added to, etc., there would never be any knowledge, no matter how provisional, unless certain standards for what constituted evidence were agreed to. Beyond that, a lot of the time, superiority is just an issue of preponderant evidence. Not merely preponderant, but usually very preponderant. And with the stipulation that the standards for what constitutes evidence on both sides are strictly scrutinized, as well.
Another thing about autism/Asperger's is that what I've heard is that the increase of autism and Aspergers correlates exactly with a decline in other forms of brain injury.
What that would mean, if true, is that nothing is changing at all, and it's just a matter of re-labeling with a more fashionable disease. (People will boast of autism/Asperger's while nobody is proud of being retarded/spastic/cerbreal palsy/etc.)
I've not been able to read up that much on autism in general, Blake. But I've done a lot of reading up on Aspergers. And this is a community with high intellectual and verbal functioning. They, themselves, are pretty capable and quick to contest any diagnostic anomalies that strike them as wrong. And there is almost no controversy over the understanding that it is either genetic, or at least congenital (present at birth).
Aspergers is now being completely combined with the autism diagnosis, rather than just "a part of" it, so the patterns of disease acquisition are even more likely to be considered linked.
Personally, I think it was wrong to combine the two diagnoses into one, but that doesn't mean that I disagree that many/most of the basic connections in terms of pathology are still there.
Neural pathology, that is.
Not merely preponderant, but usually very preponderant.
Hey, love preponderance as much as the next guy. Especially the kind measured in cup size.
lol. By leaving out the pronoun (by accident) I changed a declaration into a command!
That's all the more reason to consider that civilization's preference for logical/linguistic/mathematic/left hemisphere talent may have played a role in the prevalence of Aspergers.
OTOH, autism by itself might just represent "left hemisphere" impairments, which could have been impairment of the section of the brain more highly prized by recent evolution.
A "right hemisphere" impairment would match up with the impaired ability to read facial expressions, prosody, body gestures, social, symbolic and non-rational cognition, as is seen in Aspergers. That might be a way to compensate for "hyperactive" left hemisphere development. Further, imaging studies seem to back this up.
At least so far.
Me and Ritmo are both talking lobes!
Win Win!
Ahhh... I think I get it!
Some of my least difficult patients back at County Psych were the old lobotomies. They usually were so content.
So Allie,
Whose lobes would do more damage?
Mine or your Chickie's frontals, or your thoracics?
CL:
Allie's thoracic lobes speak German.
In such a beloved way!
There's actually a stout, red-headed, German-born nurse at the place where I work who sometimes does duty on the psychiatric ward. She's pretty funny. Very direct and questioning everything, and she talks like a character off of Hogan's Heroes.
When one of my colleagues would get off the phone with her, he'd shout "Hoooooogannnnn!".
;-)
She told us that she divorced her last husband because of disputes over personal programming preferences on the tube.
I think she got the TV out of the divorce, and was content.
CL,
I remember back at "the real" EBL's place, Allie used to talk about three-ways.
I think those days are long gone.
Ahhh, those were the days!
Well, I heard that some people divorce their husbands over a cat, silly huh?
Ritmo, my thoracic lobes don't speak for me.
I watched Chasing Amy last night.
Does that mean that you don't speak for them, either?
I watched Chasing Amy last night.
Really? It was good, wasn't it?
Yes, it was good .
That's cool. I'm glad you enjoyed and glad we (me and Blake) could offer the recommendation.
Ok, personal confession time now!
Given all the recipes you've told us about, I'll let you on something very simple and organic I'm chomping away on right now. I got some really awesome whipped, organic honey from a local apiary who sells his stuff at the weekly farmers' markets. I'm spreading it on light and fluffy torn pieces of challah that I pick up every now and then at the local Whole Foods.
Very simple but very tasty. Sometimes non-complicated things are good.
Sounds delicious, both the honey and the challah, neither which I eat anymore, but each to their own.
I just had homemade yogurt with blackberries.
Well, you should eat some of my own, then.
Why on earth would someone give up honey? How the hell you going to eat Greek yogurt (the best kind) without honey?
I think you resent the bees competing with you for their sting!
I think she's saying that Germans should stick with Germans, CL.
That means you're up next!
NO, Ritmo, that's not what I'm saying at all and you know it.
I'm sure that honey's at least as healthy a sweetener as brown sugar, certainly better than refined sugar - that horrible abomination.
Next thing I know you'll tell me you'll even swear off agave, or something.
That just ain't livin'!
Honey is still sugar, it's natural yes, but still plays havoc with insulin levels. For those who adhere to a lowcarb diet, keeping insulin levels steady is a key to the success of the diet.
Actually, I got all creative in the sweeteners section tonight. As long as you're making your own, I saw this new additive, natural sweetener, that's become all the rage lately. Starts with an "S". Sera.., I don't know. It's like an organic sweetener of some sort.
Now I'll be up all night trying to think of it.
Hooooogaaaan!
Berries are sweet and the yogurt isn't terribly tart as commercial Greek yogurt. It doesn't really need the honey, but I would indulge once in a while if tempted enough, I'm not that rigid.
Neither am I.
But I always go with the best decision.
OK, we agree, you use the honey I'll forgo the honey, it's settled.
Metaphor, shmetaphor. I think there's something you'd like to get off your mind. Or your chest. Or whatever.
But here is probably not the best place.
It's simply honey, honey.
But then, who knows what you'd say to me elsewhere! You are obviously a better enforcer of "play nice" rules here than I am.
Not sure if that holds in other places, though.
Well, obviously I'm not the one to be licking honey off your chest.
Chickie! Are you taking notes!?
Get your penis out of your hands, God dammit!
You're making CL drool a little, Allie.
How about this, next time you swear at me, do it in German. And only on this blog. That way it can be judged and settled by a fair-minded audience. And salivated over.
Or something.
I'm laughing at the visual, funny. Honey attracts all kinds of flys.
I guess it was Spanish fly for a German fly, so to speak.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. (I had to add that in. It's Trooper's blog).
And yeah, you're not alone. I laughed at it, too. Sometimes my own lines are too good, even for me.
Buzz off.
Well, that was obviously not directed toward me. I wasn't anywhere close.
So what's the story? Are you going to make up and play nice or do you have something to prove, now? I'm not into the sado-masochistic thing. Way too, er, continental.
Just let me know. I'm not above handing things off to your pigeon friend, you know. ;-)
I'm not vindictive, either.
I'll give ya about 5 and then conclude that you ran out of metaphors.
Then we should either make-up, figure out and accept what the problem was/is, or I'll just leave you to your gang here and not hang out anymore. This tension is really bugging the shit out of me.
I mean, I enjoyed that last comment thread with Blake and Chick, but I know how you like to swoop in and strut around. And it won't bother me. Unless there's something that's bugging you.
Please.
(That's sarcastic. Not a request.)
Sado masochistic??? Good lord.
Hi everyone! Wasn't that entertaining?
You're the one who's deleting your own entries, not me, Virginia Woolf.
You even deleted a comment where you said "you're not vindictive." What could anyone possibly find demeaning about that?
On the other hand, you left up the one that says "buzz off".
I'll leave it to the reader to make up their own mind regarding how to interpret that.
STOP it.
ddNTP
Now that made me laugh!
;-)
The sweetener is Stevia, Ritmo.
Thirty five comments in one thread - get a blog already.
That sort of banter would get you kicked offa some blogs, Ritmo & Allie.
And, yeah, Stevia's s'posed to be a non-toxic sweetener.
Yes Ritmo and I are the naughty children of Troopers blog. Good thing Daddy Trooper loves us.
Thank you for reminding me about Stevia, guys!
I think Margot has company in the woodpile.
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